My wacky Narnia theories

[epershand]

I have been generating large quantities of Narnia not-fic in my chats with oliviacirce today. Probably of particular interest to oliveoyl and tirial because GUYS I CAN'T RESPOND TO YOUR TWITTER CONVERSATION ON TWITTER, I HAVE TOO MANY WORDS.

WARNINGS FOR: CAPSLOCK, childhoods ruined
NOTE: I edited out just about all the parts of the conversation that were about The Magicians, but the following piece of the conversation is probably relevant to the kind of theories found below:

oliviacirce: D: I can't talk to most people about Narnia, though
or why I like it
despite (read: because of) everything that is WRONG
actually I feel like I could probably talk to Lev Grossman

epershand: Damn I love Edmund/Caspian, it is totally my Narnia OTP
I think the Edmund/Caspian fic I actually want though is, like, all from pre-dragon Eustace's POV D:

oliviacirce: Tommy was like, "…that wasn't in the book" and I was like, "YES IT IS WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT" and Chris was like, "LOL"
lol

yeah, I would read that
EUSTACE

epershand: EUSTACE
he is my FAVORITE
him and EDMUND

oliviacirce: yeah

epershand: but mostly when Edmund is BEING A SHIT
or SLASHY WITH CASPIAN

oliviacirce: yeah, I mean, that is when I like him too
I also like the Edmund/Caspian OH NOES WHO IS HIGH KING drama of Dawn Treader

epershand: The thing about my Edmund/Caspian is that in my head canon Edmund grew up and was successfully gay and had all these relationships with Centaurs and demi-gods and dryads in Narnia.
(heh, centaurs)

oliviacirce: YES

epershand: and then he went back to England and was pre-puberty AND then he got to witness the Turing trials all over the news

oliviacirce: poor Edmund
yeah, that totally sucks

epershand: so, now he's your standard tragic closeted English schoolboy except that he has memories of this whole adulthood where he was happy and out

oliviacirce: but I would totally believe it

epershand: so he gets back to narnia and he's like THE LAND WHERE I CAN BE GAY
and Caspian is totally pretty and pretty homoflexible, and he ADMIRES THE SHIT out of Edmund
and they're just ADMIRING THE SHIT out of each other all the time
and Caspian is like, let's share a bunk because I've given Lucy my cabin!
And Edmund is all OH OK.

oliviacirce:
TELL ME MORE

epershand: and then they are ROMANTIC AND SNUGGLY
and meanwhile there's Eustace, who is an annoying little shit
but whose annoying little shittitude is mostly about the fact that he's hilariously PC before his time

so I feel like at Eustace's Dreary Modern School there is a whole set of rules about how you should Respect Homosexuals and They Are People Too
(which, granted, means that given all the bullying at Eustace's Dreary Modern School, there are a lot of bullies who are like "I Respect You, Homo, You Are People Too" and then the kids are like "Um, I'm not gay." and they're like "WHY DON'T YOU RESPECT YOURSELF? NOW RESPECT MY FIST. HOMOPHOBE.")

oliviacirce: LOL
so true

epershand: So, Eustace is just ANNOYINGLY PC and condescending about the whole thing, while basically being really put out by the fact that LUCY is in her own cabin because she's a girl and the GENDERS are supposed to be EQUAL and EDMUND is getting ALL THE SNUGGLES and EVERYBODY HATES HIM)

oliviacirce: Aw Eustace

but then he TURNS INTO A DRAGON

epershand: YES

oliviacirce: so that is cool

epershand: I LOVE EUSTACE



epershand: I dunno, what I really want is lots of fic about the Pevensie children being Narnian in England
maybe the Chatwins can come too
Like, I want SO MUCH fic with them in the couple of years before The Last Battle
being their adult selves
OH QUESTION
I WONDER
What age they are when they chase the Questing Beast and go back to England
vs what age they are when they are in the train crash

oliviacirce: yeah, no, totally
right, because Narnian ages are weird too, aren't they?
how long DO they spend in Narnia as adults?

epershand: what if they're the SAME AGE

oliviacirce: HOW LONG IS THE GOLDEN AGE?

epershand: what if THEY ARE ONLY DESTINED TO LIVE AS LONG AS THEY WERE KINGS AND QUEENS IN NARNIA

oliviacirce: I would believe that!

epershand: they've always seemed a bit younger in the Last Battle than they were in the end of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe though
so maybe, all told, they lived in Narnia for longer than they lived in England
that kind of turns a lot of my assumptions about their lives in England on their head
because the curse of Narnia is that when Aslan says they can't come back, it means that they have to live their full lives and grow old and die in England

oliviacirce: right

epershand: and the train crash means that, Susan aside, they get out of doing that

oliviacirce: yeah, that is weird
I mean, Susan is the only one that is really cursed


epershand: Oh man
What if Susan spends the rest of her life learning magic and becomes a hedge witch and spends the rest of her life trying to alter time to make the train crash not happen and ends up as Jadis?

oliviacirce: oooooh
that would amazing
it would even BE amazing
if only because Susan becoming Jadis is terrifying but somehow weirdly right

epershand: the thing about Susan becoming Jadis is that it does the opposite of solving the problem of Susan, it makes the problem of Susan 500 times worse
but at least it doesn't include graphic Jadis/Aslan, NEIL FUCKING GAIMAN

oliviacirce: no, I know
like, it's weirdly right, but the problem of Susan does become a billion times worse
ahahahah, well, yeah
OH NEIL

epershand: because then her series of consequences is
step ONE: like clothes and makeup
step TWO: get banished from Narnia for that
step THREE: become obsessed with getting back to Narnia
step FOUR: find a way to get to the world-between worlds but jump into the wrong pool
step FIVE: be worshiped, become vain and evil
step SIX: become immortal and vainer and eviler
step SEVEN: catch a ride back to the world between worlds on the coattail of the next available man, who is the professor who took care of you when you were small and pure
step EIGHT: ALWAYS WINTER AND NEVER CHRISTMAS, MOTHERFUCKERS

oliviacirce: IT IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE
and yet, I would believe it

epershand: and thus EVEN BETTER

oliviacirce: in the universe in which Narnia is BASICALLY EVIL

epershand: yeah

oliviacirce: cf, Fillory

epershand: yeah

oliviacirce: meanwhile I will be over here, chilling with Diggory
♥Diggory♥

epershand: &Diggory;
oh man and SUSAN EATS THE APPLE
and now she is EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG WITH WOMANKIND and responsible for ALL SIN IN THE WORLD
all because she LIKED MAKEUP

Comments

[starlady]

Narnia! I have THOUGHTS, I will share them with you now.

So, um, I may or may not be plotting a fic that tackles the problem of Susan from sideways, and I've been working off the assumption that the Golden Age was really damn short, all things considered--like, say, Lucy is 25--but now I think I may have made it too short, remembering The Horse and His Boy in particular. I'd say 20 years minimum, not more than 30, probably 25. 25 years is a good number for a Golden Age. In any case, I definitely think they were younger in The Last Battle than they were at the end of TLWW--Peter's probably like 20, 21 at most, yes? That's what I've been thinking. I could go as high as 23, which would make Lucy 16 or 17, iirc?

WAY TO DESTROY THE WHOLE POINT OF THE CURSE OF NARNIA, AslanC.S. Lewis! Grr, argh, the train wreck, grr, argh.

I would support Susan --> Jadis, in a negative feminist "Fuck you" kind of way.

I had never thought that about Edmund, but I haven't seen Dawn Treader yet, and I am totally prepared to think that, and agree with it. And now I kind of want to write it, oh god.

P.S. What about Neil Gaiman and Jadis/Aslan?

[epershand]

Oooh, I'd love to read the story you're plotting. Below, Aria says that according to an official timeline I've never heard of before now, the Pevensies rule in Narnia for 14 years, and the train crash is 9 years later. I never really thought about the length of time before today, but I think I assumed that they ruled for ~20 years and that the train crash was about 15 years later, so I guess I assumed long on both counts. Interesting. That train wreck was the biggest Deus Ex Machina ever, sigh.

I actually haven't seen Dawn Treader either. My thoughts about Edmund were sparked by ivyblossom's really lovely Edmund/Bacchus fic years and years ago, and I've been plotting Dawn Treader-era Edmund/Caspian ever since. Ivy's fic is mostly about the nature of memory and the way that Narnia erases itself from the childrens' minds when they aren't there, but bits and pieces of it have stuck around with me and Edmund has just sort of become my personal queer character in Narnia ever since then. (Ivy's fic: Part One, Part Two, Part Three)

I think it would be possible to do Susan --> Jadis in a "fuck you" sort of way, or even along the lines of a fanwanky redemption of Lilith story, but my first thought is just to follow out all the potential negative consequences given that both of them start in a really problematic place. At bare minimum, that's a warning sign of what a positive feminist story needs to AVOID saying about the two of them.

Re: Neil Gaiman, his short story "The Problem of Susan" (in Fragile Things) is mostly really lovely, but the sex scene in it is HIGHLY TRAUMATIC.

[starlady]

I was assuming a short interval between TLWW and TLB, but I'm kind of angry that my short guess was right for the Golden Age. If I ever need to I am totally going to ignore that.

I clearly need to reread TVDT, since I think I missed the fact that Eustace is actually right except for his attitude. TVDT was my all-time favorite of the books for a while.

[epershand]

I'm pretty sure that Eustace isn't SUPPOSED to be right, I just have a hard time falling in line with Lewis when the evidence that he is being raised wrong is that his parents are "vegetarians, non-smokers and teetotallers" and have sent him to a coed boarding school.

[starlady]

I remember him being a pratt, but yeah, I think I disagree with Lewis here.

I kind of want a Jadis icon that says "ALWAYS WINTER & NEVER CHRISTMAS MOTHERFUCKERS."

Sex scene? Traumatic?

[(Anonymous)]

I don't remember a sex scene. What WAS traumatic was the body identification bit.

[aria]

THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT THIS POST I AM NOT IN LOVE WITH.

I really, desperately need to see Dawn Treader (but I won't for another weeeek, because I promised my father I'd see it with him) and in the meantime, I am so massively in favor of queer grown-up Edmund, and Edmund the closeted schoolboy, and Edmund/Caspian! Also I was laughing so hard at the bit about Eustace's school. SO TRUE.

Re: timelines, there is actually a handy official timeline! Skimming tells me that the Pevensie kids were respectivelt 13, 12, 10, and 8 when they first went to Narnia; they ruled fourteen years, which puts them at 27, 26, 24, and 22 when they return to England. The train crash nine years later, when they're 22, 21, 19, and 17. So ... all told, they did spend more total time in England, but not much more, especially for Lucy where it's ... only like one year. That sounds, in fact, pretty damn traumatic.

I am ... a bit in love with White Witch!Susan. Um. If I give my love to you two and to Lev Grossman, could I write that fic? God knows if I ever will, but I am so in love with the idea.

[epershand]

YOU ARE MORE THAN WELCOME TO WRITE THE WHITE WITCH!SUSAN. In fact, I would adore to pieces if you did. My main complaint to Olivia over the course of the conversation was "I generate all these ideas, but I can't WRITE them, why can't someone else come along and WRITE THEM FOR ME?" If that someone is you, ALL THE BETTER. But I do know what your fic backlog looks like right now, so I can't quite bring myself to DEMAND that you write it.

Ooooooh, handy timeline is handy. I'd always assumed a bit more time in both cases, but that makes sense. And it means that after the point in time where they first went to Narnia, they *did* spend more time in Narnia than in England. Which.... gah. Wow. Oh Pevensies, my heart breaks for you. They never even got to live as long a life in this world than they did in that.

QUEER EDMUND IS MY FAVORITE. I love him so very much. My love for him started with ivyblossom's Edmund/Bacchus (I recced it to starlady up above, check it out), but it has definitely evolved to the point where it's taken on a life of its own in my head. Also I love Eustace so much, and making fun of his Dreary Modern School. In part because it's always kind of hurt that Lewis was satirizing a system that was a lot closer to my hippie childhood than anything the Pevensies experienced was. So I need to say "Fuck you, Lewis" and satirize back even harder.

Also I STILL NEED TO SEE DAWN TREADER TOO.

[aria]

Look, at this point even I don't know what my fic backlog looks like! So if I am moved to write it, I am sure as hell going to write it. (Also, perhaps I will want to write Dawn Treader fic after I see it! Winter puts me in a very Narnian mood, unsurprisingly.)

I know! Their spending more time in Narnia than England absolutely breaks my heart, and -- honestly, no one will ever convince me that the movies are not excellent, because Prince Caspian actually ADDRESSED it. JOY.

QUEER EDMUND IS DELIGHTFUL, and also one of the big reasons I am looking forward to Dawn Treader, because I always sort of wanted to ship them but the book did not give me enough. Now I have lots of hope!

it's always kind of hurt that Lewis was satirizing a system that was a lot closer to my hippie childhood than anything the Pevensies experienced was.

YES THIS. I didn't notice so much when I was little, but I remember rereading Dawn Treader a year or two ago, and ... unfortunately I don't have the book on me and can't look it up, but there are some disparaging things said about Eustace's parents, I don't know, frowning on smoking and thinking that fresh air is good for you or something? And I am like "But CS Lewis, Eustace's upbringing wouldn't make him a horrible person! OH MY GOD HE IS NOT AN ASS JUST BECAUSE HE HASN'T FOUND JESUS." I assume he is an ass because he is raised in such a way that he has very few points of connections with his peers and he's insecure and angry enough to lash out. In conclusion, I adore Eustace.

[epershand]

Yeah, I loved that Prince Caspian addressed it. That was definitely my favorite thing about the movie. PETER. OMFG PETER. (But then, I love to pieces the book about the Pevensie children wandering around in the ruins of Cair Paravel and getting lost in the woods and not being able to see Aslan, and am generally uninterested in the book where they fight battles on behalf of some guy named Caspian. Caspian as a character is really only redeemed for me by Dawn Treader.)

EUSTACE. ALWAYS LITTLE MOLLY WAS LIKE, BUT EUSTACE IS RIGHT, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM IS IT JUST HIS ATTITUDE I AM SO CONFUSED!

[epershand]

Also, in re: the White Witch fic.... CAN IT HAVE WORLD BETWEEN WORLDS! SUSAN/PENNY ? Because that would be AMAZING.

[aria]

I am staring at this comment and trying to make my brain work, because I KNOW WHO PENNY IS, WHO IS PENNY.

[epershand]

SORRY. He's the angry guy with the mohawk in The Magicians

[aria]

OH MY GOD YES THANK YOU. I know Penny was someone from The Magicians, but like a fool I was going through the girls. PENNY. He spends so much time between worlds; of course he and Susan meet up! :D

[orbitalfrequency]

A THOUSAND TIMES THIS.

[feverbeats]

What if Susan spends the rest of her life learning magic and becomes a hedge witch and spends the rest of her life trying to alter time to make the train crash not happen and ends up as Jadis?
CHILLS, FUCKING CHILLS. YES.

[epershand]

Join me in my evil plot to make Aria write it!

[feverbeats]

Oh, gladly!

[aria]

WRITING ALL THE THINGS. :|

[feverbeats]

DON'T YOU MIKEYWAY FACE AT ME, MISS

:|

[aria]

LAUGHING SO HARD

HAVE NEVER BEEN ACCUSED OF MIKEYWAY FACES BEFORE

:|||

[feverbeats]

WELCOME TO BANDOM, WE ARE GOING TO KEEP YOU

*gerard faces right back* o_o

fffffffff need a bandom icon.

[aria]

Fff, I think you are, because I saw the o_o and IMMEDIATELY PICTURED GERARD'S FACE.

(Omg, Molly, I am sorry we are doing this here. XD?)

[feverbeats]

SORRY, MOLLY

LEAVING NOW

JUST GONNA LEAVE THIS HERE

[epershand]

NO MOST IRONIC PLACE TO DO IT BECAUSE THIS HAPPENED WHILE MOLLY WAS MAKING BANDOM ICONS.

[were_duck]

X X
CO==

(Frank approves of this comment thread)

[wordweaverlynn]

so he gets back to narnia and he's like THE LAND WHERE I CAN BE GAY

Narnia is in San Francisco? Makes a weird and delightful kind of sense.

[epershand]

Hee, Narnia is San Francisco! After all, we DO have talking bears here. And otters, and wolves, and...

[trinity_clare]

Oh man, oliviacirce sent me over here, and there is NOTHING I do not love about this post. I think Edmund/Caspian was my first slash pairing, waaaaaay back before I knew what slash was. Dawn Treader was always my favorite of the books too, but I am sadly of unexcited about the movie because my favorite things about the movies have been Peter and Susan, and this is not their movie. (Can there be a movie about Peter and Susan? In England, in Narnia, wherever, I would totally watch it.)

[epershand]

The movies really have been SO GOOD at Peter and Susan. I haven't seen Dawn Treader yet, but I'm optimistic from what I hear that they do Edmund, Lucy, and Eustace really well, even if the special effects are overdone. I don't know when I'm going to get a chance to see it, but I'm pretty excited.